Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Thursday Debate: Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez?

There's a little segment on here called Thursday Debate... today we look at which SS you would rather have on your team, Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez?

Based on media hype, this race isn't even close... Jose Reyes is the guy that gets the most publicity and is more well known (if you don't believe me, check out the All-Star voting totals, where so far Reyes is first among NL SS and Ramirez is not in the top 5). But both are under 25 and doing fantastic things for their teams.

But who is better?

First, a look at last year's numbers. Both were fantastic and have some awards to prove it, as Reyes was an All-Star and Ramirez was the NL Rookie of the Year. Jose Reyes batted an even .300 with a .354 OBP, but also showed solid power and a .487 SLG, as he had a very good 66 XBH (30 2B, 17 3B, 19 HR). This was good for an OPS+ of 118. He also stole 64 bases with an excellent 79% success rate. He had 6.27 RC/27.

Ramirez was no slouch either. All he did was bat .292 with a nearly identical (to Reyes) .353 OBP and .480 SLG, as he had 74 XBH in 2006 (46 2B, 11 3B, 17 HR). This was good for a 116 OPS+. He wasn't quite as good of a base stealer as Reyes, but he did steal 51 bases with a 77% success rate. He had 6.00 RC/27.

So looking at the numbers, at least offensively, they were nearly identical in value, though Reyes was maybe slightly better with the extra stolen bases.

In 2007, however, Ramirez has been better so far in my opinion. Both have been awesome, but here are their numbers:

Jose Reyes - 311 BA/395 OBP/474 SLG/869 OPS/136 OPS+/28 SB (84% success), 7.02 RC/27
Hanley Ramirez - 317 BA/392 OBP/510 SLG/902 OPS/144 OPS+/15 SB (78% success), 7.16 RC/27

From the looks of things, Ramirez is hitting for more power than Reyes, and Reyes is again stealing more bases. If you look at RC or OPS+, Ramirez has the slight edge, while Reyes holds a slight edge in VORP.

Age is nearly a wash, as Reyes is only about 6 months older than Ramirez.

If given a choice, I think I might have to take Hanley Ramirez. Reyes creates a little more havoc on the basepaths, but I think Ramirez might have a little more power. He has shown it this year, and he had a little more power in the Minors than Reyes did. At the very least, the two are really, really awesome and really close in value. Reyes may get the most publicity, but Ramirez is one of the best young talents in the MLB.

Who would you choose? Please cast a vote and then your reasons in the comments.

Who would you rather have on your team?
Jose Reyes
Hanley Ramirez
  

24 comments:

grittysquirrels said...

Would it be fair for me to throw out the name JJ Hardy? Because my Brewers-allegiances aside I'd honestly pick him. It's too bad that due to the popular vote he has no shot at beating out Reyes.

Sanchez said...

I think you make a good case for Ramirez, but for me it's Reyes everytime. All those stolen bases don't just add up to more runs but also to more butts on seats.

Business or Leisure? said...

I took Hanley over Jose in my fantasy league (or, as it were, in the next to last round when Jose went WAAAAAAAAAY earlier than expected). It has paid off.

Wanda (aka Metschick) said...

Ramirez's stats have been a bit better than Reyes, but I'd still choose Reyes every time.

Love the joy and emotion that kid brings to the game.

Not saying that Hanley doesn't bring any, just don't see Han-Ram as often, so I don't have a grasp for that.

Simon said...

Reyes speed isn't just about steals. He goes 1st to 3rd, scores from second on every single, and balked his way home from second.

Big D said...

Gotta take Reyes here, and the reasoning I use is directly from the mouth of the biggest Mets' fan I know:

"When he walks or gets on first, he's almost a guarantee to be at second with a chance to score on any base hit."

Simple math - if the guy gets on base, he's an automatic scoring threat. Coming from the Red Sox farm system, I got plenty of time to see and hear about Hanley. But he's just not as valuable to his team right now as Reyes.

Now... Hanley vs. Julio Lugo (Or Edgar Renteria, Alex Gonzalez) is a debate that just makes me angry...

Arrowed said...

Another point of contention: Jose Reyes is pretty bad defensively, while Hanley Ramirez is just flat-out atrocious.

Doberman Demeanor said...

Good comparison, but I'll take Reyes. Watching him freak Armando Benetiz out the other day cinched it. His speed is about more than steals, as Simon and Big D pointed out.

JP said...

That was closer than I thought it'd be, but I'm still going with Reyes. Can't understate the importance of him putting up those numbers in NYC, in a playoff chase, versus Hanley doing it in Florida with no one watching.

sugarshane024 said...

I'll take Reyes, although the numbers are close. I'll take Reyes for two reasons. #1) He can cause havoc on the basepaths that nobody else in the league can (as you mentioned). #2) He is a phenomenal leadoff hitter, and leadoff is likely the most important spot in the lineup. Hanley hits 3rd.

By the way, here are the 2006 VORPs of each player:

Reyes - 58.8
Ramirez - 54.9

sugarshane024
thenumber24.blogspot.com

CSG said...

No one's mentioned this, but park factors should also be considered. Both play in pitcher's parks, but Dolphins Stadium, or whatever it's called now, is one of the worst offensive environments in the majors.

prophecy said...

Keep in mind Reyes has 11 more RBIs this season from the lead-off spot (I'm not sure if Ramirez bats 3rd all the time, but he did last night), and has hit more doubles, 5 more triples (7 to Ramirez's 2) and picked up 8 more walks and struck out 10 fewer times. In fact, with the exception of those home run numbers (more than made up by the triples and his speed) he leads in every category. Both are exceptional players, but Reyes, right now, is a cut above.

And re: defense--I'm not sure what Arrowed is talking about--Reyes' defense is great; he's made the fewest errors among shortstops in the NL, with a .990 Fielding Percentage (the best) (playing 50 games) as opposed to Ramirez's 10 Es/.949FPCT (worst among active NL shortstops).

Does that settle it?

Anonymous said...

reyes is also a switch-hitter . . .

and on those defensive numbers--they actually make Reyes the best active shortstop, defensively, in baseball. Probably not true, of course, but considering his offensive prowess combined with his good+ defense, you have to say that right now, this kid is the best shortstop in the major leagues at the moment.

twins15 said...

Those defensive numbers are obviously nice, but there's far more to defense than just not committing errors. Range is hugely important and you can't tell who has more range based on error numbers... Reyes appears to have a slight edge there but it's hard to talk about their defense without watching them too often (which I don't get a chance to do).

As I said, I'll take Ramirez, but that could change by the day... both guys are absolutely fabulous.

Brad Corvelle said...

Although Ramirez does have more power and more power potential, Reyes is a much better basestealer and defensive shortstop.

I'd take speed and defense over power any day of the week (especially at the SS position).

Stefan Ming said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Stefan Ming said...

gotta go with reyes... he is so smooth at SS, best in the league there. and he is a great leadoff hitter. i love how he plays...

rstiles said...

I love Hanley, but Jose Reyes is fucking SWEET!!!....he has speed and he also has some pop in his bat....

He is a bad ass!!

yoooo said...

the numbers speak for themselves. hanley outshines reyes in every stat. hanley all the way baby. also miguel cabrera is way better than david wright. just throwin that out theere.

sexy said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,A片,視訊聊天室,聊天室,視訊,視訊聊天室,080苗栗人聊天室,上班族聊天室,成人聊天室,中部人聊天室,一夜情聊天室,情色聊天室,視訊交友網a片,a片


免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,免費AV,色情網站,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人影片,成人網站,A片,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,情色網,日本A片,免費A片下載,性愛

A片,色情,成人,做愛,情色文學,A片下載,色情遊戲,色情影片,色情聊天室,情色電影,免費視訊,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,一葉情貼圖片區,情色,情色視訊,免費成人影片,視訊交友,視訊聊天,視訊聊天室,言情小說,愛情小說,AIO,AV片,A漫,avdvd,聊天室,自拍,情色論壇,視訊美女,AV成人網,色情A片,SEX,成人論壇

情趣用品,A片,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,色情網站,免費AV,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人網站,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,成人影片,情色網


情趣用品,A片,免費A片,日本A片,A片下載,線上A片,成人電影,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,微風成人區,成人文章,成人影城,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,臺灣情色網,色情,情色電影,色情遊戲,嘟嘟情人色網,麗的色遊戲,情色論壇,色情網站,一葉情貼圖片區,做愛,性愛,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,美女交友,做愛影片

av,情趣用品,a片,成人電影,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,aio,av女優,AV,免費A片,日本a片,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,聊天室,美女交友,成人光碟

情趣用品.A片,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,色情遊戲,色情網站,聊天室,ut聊天室,豆豆聊天室,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,免費A片,日本a片,a片下載,線上a片,av女優,av,成人電影,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,成人網站,自拍,尋夢園聊天室

sex said...

免費視訊聊天,辣妹視訊,視訊交友網,美女視訊,視訊交友,視訊交友90739,成人聊天室,視訊聊天室,視訊聊天,視訊聊天室,情色視訊,情人視訊網,視訊美女,一葉情貼圖片區,免費視訊聊天室,免費視訊,ut聊天室,聊天室,豆豆聊天室,尋夢園聊天室,聊天室尋夢園,影音視訊聊天室

威而柔,自慰套,自慰套,SM,充氣娃娃,充氣娃娃,潤滑液,飛機杯,按摩棒,跳蛋,性感睡衣,威而柔,自慰套,自慰套,SM,充氣娃娃,充氣娃娃,潤滑液,飛機杯,按摩棒,跳蛋,性感睡衣
情惑用品性易購,情境坊歡愉用品

色情遊戲,寄情築園小遊戲,情色文學,一葉情貼圖片區,情境坊歡愉用品,情惑用品性易購,情人視訊網,辣妹視訊,情色交友,成人論壇,情色論壇,愛情公寓,情色,舊情人,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,色情小說,做愛,做愛影片,性愛
情境坊歡愉用品,情惑用品性易購,aio交友愛情館,一葉情貼圖片區,情趣用品

徵信社,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣精品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品

辣妹視訊,美女視訊,視訊交友網,視訊聊天室,視訊交友,視訊美女,免費視訊,免費視訊聊天,視訊交友90739,免費視訊聊天室,成人聊天室,視訊聊天

網拍設計,網頁設計

cvxv said...

看房子,買房子,建商自售,自售,台北新成屋,台北豪宅,新成屋,豪宅,美髮儀器,美髮,儀器,髮型,EMBA,MBA,學位,EMBA,專業認證,認證課程,博士學位,DBA,PHD,在職進修,碩士學位,推廣教育,DBA,進修課程,碩士學位,網路廣告,關鍵字廣告,關鍵字,課程介紹,學分班,文憑,牛樟芝,段木,牛樟菇,日式料理, 台北居酒屋,日本料理,結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,台北結婚,場地,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,造型系列,學位,SEO,婚宴,捷運,學區,美髮,儀器,髮型,看房子,買房子,建商自售,自售,房子,捷運,學區,台北新成屋,台北豪宅,新成屋,豪宅,學位,碩士學位,進修,在職進修, 課程,教育,學位,證照,mba,文憑,學分班,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,婚宴,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,婚宴,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,婚宴,結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北結婚,場地,結婚,場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北結婚,婚宴場地,結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北結婚,場地,居酒屋,燒烤,美髮,儀器,髮型,美髮,儀器,髮型,美髮,儀器,髮型,美髮,儀器,髮型,小套房,小套房,進修,在職進修,留學,證照,MBA,EMBA,留學,MBA,EMBA,留學,進修,在職進修,牛樟芝,段木,牛樟菇,關鍵字排名,網路行銷,PMP,在職專班,研究所在職專班,碩士在職專班,PMP,證照,在職專班,研究所在職專班,碩士在職專班,SEO,廣告,關鍵字,關鍵字排名,網路行銷,網頁設計,網站設計,網站排名,搜尋引擎,網路廣告,SEO,廣告,關鍵字,關鍵字排名,網路行銷,網頁設計,網站設計,網站排名,搜尋引擎,網路廣告,SEO,廣告,關鍵字,關鍵字排名,網路行銷,網頁設計,網站設計,網站排名,搜尋引擎,網路廣告,SEO,廣告,關鍵字,關鍵字排名,網路行銷,網頁設計,網站設計,網站排名,搜尋引擎,網路廣告,EMBA,MBA,PMP
,在職進修,專案管理,出國留學,EMBA,MBA,PMP
,在職進修,專案管理,出國留學,EMBA,MBA,PMP,在職進修,專案管理,出國留學,婚宴,婚宴,婚宴,婚宴,漢高資訊,漢高資訊,比利時,比利時聯合商學院,宜蘭民宿,台東民宿,澎湖民宿,墾丁民宿,花蓮民宿,SEO,找工作

住宿,民宿,飯宿,住宿,民宿,美容,美髮,整形,造型,美容,室內設計,室內設計,室內設計,室內設計,室內設計,漢高資訊,在職進修,漢高資訊,在職進修,漢高資訊,在職進修,漢高資訊,在職進修,漢高資訊,在職進修,住宿,民宿,飯店,旅遊,美容,美髮,整形,造型,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,羅志祥,周杰倫,五月天,蔡依林,林志玲,羅志祥,周杰倫,五月天,蔡依林,林志玲,羅志祥,羅志祥,周杰倫,五月天,蔡依林,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,美髮,整形,造型,美容,美髮,整形,造型,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,比利時聯合商學院,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,比利時聯合商學院,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,漢高資訊

freefun0616 said...

酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店經紀,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店工作,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
專業酒店經紀,
合法酒店經紀,
酒店暑假打工,
酒店寒假打工,
酒店經紀人,
菲梵酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,
禮服酒店上班,
酒店小姐兼職,
便服酒店工作,
酒店打工經紀,
制服酒店經紀,
酒店經紀,

,

eda said...

潤滑液,SM,內衣,性感內衣,自慰器,充氣娃娃,AV,
情趣,G點,性感丁字褲,情趣,角色扮演服,吊帶襪,丁字褲,情趣用品,無線跳蛋,男女,


情趣按摩棒,自慰套,角色扮演,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣跳蛋,
.,
按摩棒,電動按摩棒,飛機杯,視訊,自慰套,自慰套,情趣用品,情趣內衣,