Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Thursday Debate: Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez?

There's a little segment on here called Thursday Debate... today we look at which SS you would rather have on your team, Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez?

Based on media hype, this race isn't even close... Jose Reyes is the guy that gets the most publicity and is more well known (if you don't believe me, check out the All-Star voting totals, where so far Reyes is first among NL SS and Ramirez is not in the top 5). But both are under 25 and doing fantastic things for their teams.

But who is better?

First, a look at last year's numbers. Both were fantastic and have some awards to prove it, as Reyes was an All-Star and Ramirez was the NL Rookie of the Year. Jose Reyes batted an even .300 with a .354 OBP, but also showed solid power and a .487 SLG, as he had a very good 66 XBH (30 2B, 17 3B, 19 HR). This was good for an OPS+ of 118. He also stole 64 bases with an excellent 79% success rate. He had 6.27 RC/27.

Ramirez was no slouch either. All he did was bat .292 with a nearly identical (to Reyes) .353 OBP and .480 SLG, as he had 74 XBH in 2006 (46 2B, 11 3B, 17 HR). This was good for a 116 OPS+. He wasn't quite as good of a base stealer as Reyes, but he did steal 51 bases with a 77% success rate. He had 6.00 RC/27.

So looking at the numbers, at least offensively, they were nearly identical in value, though Reyes was maybe slightly better with the extra stolen bases.

In 2007, however, Ramirez has been better so far in my opinion. Both have been awesome, but here are their numbers:

Jose Reyes - 311 BA/395 OBP/474 SLG/869 OPS/136 OPS+/28 SB (84% success), 7.02 RC/27
Hanley Ramirez - 317 BA/392 OBP/510 SLG/902 OPS/144 OPS+/15 SB (78% success), 7.16 RC/27

From the looks of things, Ramirez is hitting for more power than Reyes, and Reyes is again stealing more bases. If you look at RC or OPS+, Ramirez has the slight edge, while Reyes holds a slight edge in VORP.

Age is nearly a wash, as Reyes is only about 6 months older than Ramirez.

If given a choice, I think I might have to take Hanley Ramirez. Reyes creates a little more havoc on the basepaths, but I think Ramirez might have a little more power. He has shown it this year, and he had a little more power in the Minors than Reyes did. At the very least, the two are really, really awesome and really close in value. Reyes may get the most publicity, but Ramirez is one of the best young talents in the MLB.

Who would you choose? Please cast a vote and then your reasons in the comments.

Who would you rather have on your team?
Jose Reyes
Hanley Ramirez
  

41 comments:

grittysquirrels said...

Would it be fair for me to throw out the name JJ Hardy? Because my Brewers-allegiances aside I'd honestly pick him. It's too bad that due to the popular vote he has no shot at beating out Reyes.

Anonymous said...

I think you make a good case for Ramirez, but for me it's Reyes everytime. All those stolen bases don't just add up to more runs but also to more butts on seats.

Jeff Laughlin said...

I took Hanley over Jose in my fantasy league (or, as it were, in the next to last round when Jose went WAAAAAAAAAY earlier than expected). It has paid off.

Wanda (aka Metschick) said...

Ramirez's stats have been a bit better than Reyes, but I'd still choose Reyes every time.

Love the joy and emotion that kid brings to the game.

Not saying that Hanley doesn't bring any, just don't see Han-Ram as often, so I don't have a grasp for that.

Simon said...

Reyes speed isn't just about steals. He goes 1st to 3rd, scores from second on every single, and balked his way home from second.

Big D said...

Gotta take Reyes here, and the reasoning I use is directly from the mouth of the biggest Mets' fan I know:

"When he walks or gets on first, he's almost a guarantee to be at second with a chance to score on any base hit."

Simple math - if the guy gets on base, he's an automatic scoring threat. Coming from the Red Sox farm system, I got plenty of time to see and hear about Hanley. But he's just not as valuable to his team right now as Reyes.

Now... Hanley vs. Julio Lugo (Or Edgar Renteria, Alex Gonzalez) is a debate that just makes me angry...

Arrowed said...

Another point of contention: Jose Reyes is pretty bad defensively, while Hanley Ramirez is just flat-out atrocious.

K said...

Good comparison, but I'll take Reyes. Watching him freak Armando Benetiz out the other day cinched it. His speed is about more than steals, as Simon and Big D pointed out.

Anonymous said...

That was closer than I thought it'd be, but I'm still going with Reyes. Can't understate the importance of him putting up those numbers in NYC, in a playoff chase, versus Hanley doing it in Florida with no one watching.

sugarshane024 said...

I'll take Reyes, although the numbers are close. I'll take Reyes for two reasons. #1) He can cause havoc on the basepaths that nobody else in the league can (as you mentioned). #2) He is a phenomenal leadoff hitter, and leadoff is likely the most important spot in the lineup. Hanley hits 3rd.

By the way, here are the 2006 VORPs of each player:

Reyes - 58.8
Ramirez - 54.9

sugarshane024
thenumber24.blogspot.com

CSG said...

No one's mentioned this, but park factors should also be considered. Both play in pitcher's parks, but Dolphins Stadium, or whatever it's called now, is one of the worst offensive environments in the majors.

prophecy said...

Keep in mind Reyes has 11 more RBIs this season from the lead-off spot (I'm not sure if Ramirez bats 3rd all the time, but he did last night), and has hit more doubles, 5 more triples (7 to Ramirez's 2) and picked up 8 more walks and struck out 10 fewer times. In fact, with the exception of those home run numbers (more than made up by the triples and his speed) he leads in every category. Both are exceptional players, but Reyes, right now, is a cut above.

And re: defense--I'm not sure what Arrowed is talking about--Reyes' defense is great; he's made the fewest errors among shortstops in the NL, with a .990 Fielding Percentage (the best) (playing 50 games) as opposed to Ramirez's 10 Es/.949FPCT (worst among active NL shortstops).

Does that settle it?

Anonymous said...

reyes is also a switch-hitter . . .

and on those defensive numbers--they actually make Reyes the best active shortstop, defensively, in baseball. Probably not true, of course, but considering his offensive prowess combined with his good+ defense, you have to say that right now, this kid is the best shortstop in the major leagues at the moment.

twins15 said...

Those defensive numbers are obviously nice, but there's far more to defense than just not committing errors. Range is hugely important and you can't tell who has more range based on error numbers... Reyes appears to have a slight edge there but it's hard to talk about their defense without watching them too often (which I don't get a chance to do).

As I said, I'll take Ramirez, but that could change by the day... both guys are absolutely fabulous.

Brad said...

Although Ramirez does have more power and more power potential, Reyes is a much better basestealer and defensive shortstop.

I'd take speed and defense over power any day of the week (especially at the SS position).

Stefan Ming said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stefan Ming said...

gotta go with reyes... he is so smooth at SS, best in the league there. and he is a great leadoff hitter. i love how he plays...

rstiles said...

I love Hanley, but Jose Reyes is fucking SWEET!!!....he has speed and he also has some pop in his bat....

He is a bad ass!!

Anonymous said...

the numbers speak for themselves. hanley outshines reyes in every stat. hanley all the way baby. also miguel cabrera is way better than david wright. just throwin that out theere.

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Anonymous said...

I would have to probably go with Jose Reyes. But not entirely sure of that.

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I love Hanley Ramirez and fully admit he was a better fantasy player than Jose Reyes last season. But, the foundation for '08 drafts isn't set entirely upon what happened last season. That kind of logic was the reason Alex Rodriguez often fell outside the top four on draft day in '07.

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